Mon, Jul 10, 2023
- @davidprieto:arada.club02:57For the "copy the data repo", would it be possible to e.g. back it up to a local computer and then upload it to a different PDS?
- kcchu02:58
In reply to this message
The repo is location independent (like git repo), so technically you can download it and upload it again and continue to work - 03:00So, yes, personal backup (perhaps automatically backup to iCloud/Google drive) is a good way to make sure you can migrate your account even if the PDS shut down or ban you(edited)
- @davidprieto:arada.club03:01Ah, that's great
- @davidprieto:arada.club03:24One more question, if I may. Does the protocol have something similar to matrix's .wellknown system, where you can put your PDS on https://pds.example.com, but your users' handles are @user.example.cominstead of @user.pds.example.com?
- kcchu03:26
In reply to this message
You can already do that. If you have a domain name you can use it as your user handle. - @davidprieto:arada.club03:27
In reply to this message
I mean do it automatically, for all the users of your PDS, without them having to do anything - kcchu03:31User handle is independent of the address of PDS. The *.bsky.socialdomain name is offered help user onboarding but technically it can be any domain name
- @davidprieto:arada.club03:33Yeah, I know they can change their handle, I'm talking about the default handles I give them when they create an account on my PDS
- kcchu03:40I mean the handle and the location of PDS is really independent. So, there wasn’t even a default that you need to offer user handle asuser.pds.example.comwhen the PDS ispds.example.com. As a PDS operator, you could offer any domain name for users to sign up. It is also possible to not offer any domain and require users to bring their own domain.
So, in short, you could do what you said. But it is not done in matrix’s or ActivityPub’s way(edited) - @davidprieto:arada.club
- @davidprieto:arada.club06:15
So, right now there seem to be two federations: one called Bluesky and another called Sandbox.
I'd like to know, can one PDS be part of more than one federation?
- retr0id07:06In theory yes but it's not advisable to straddle both sandbox and non-sandbox networks
- 07:06and mirroring DIDs between the sandbox and prod PLC servers is against the rules
- 07:06but there's nothing technically preventing it
- @davidprieto:arada.club07:21
In reply to this message
Oh, I meant hypothetically. In the future, in case there's ever more than one federation running - retr0id07:22the sandbox is a special case, other than that, there's no clear "border" between different (sub)networks
- 07:22minus people blocking each other, any BGS can federate with any PDS
- @davidprieto:arada.club07:23I was referring more to the PLC, which I understood is more centralized
- retr0id07:24there can only really be one PLC
- 07:25with the current design at least
- @davidprieto:arada.club07:27Oh. I thought one PLC equals one federation, is that not so?
- retr0id07:29I guess that's one way of looking at it
- 07:31by the way, I opened an issue suggesting a way to partition different PLCs from each other https://github.com/bluesky-social/did-method-plc/issues/33
- 07:33if you wanted to use multiple PLCs at once, you'd need to specify a whole bunch of logic about how to prioritise the two data sources and how to resolve conflicting information
- 07:33I can't really think of a coherent way of doing it
- kcchu07:55Indeed, I think the sandbox PLC is only a stopgap before shipping federation in main. Once federation, I can’t see a reason why a sandbox should be maintained
- 09:55Tim Burks joined the room
- @davidprieto:arada.club11:41
One more question, if I may. On Mastodon, the server hosts not only the content created by its users, but also the content created by everyone followed by its users. Which results in lots of duplication.
Does that happen on Bluesky too?
- valka11:46No, the pds only hosts data which is from its own users. The BGS consumes that data and then provides it to the appview which then provides it to the end user client
- 11:48David Moncada joined the room
- David Moncada
- @samme:schizo.cafe12:00
In reply to this message
https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds you can create (or join) a server in the federation sandbox - @davidprieto:arada.club12:04That's great
- David Moncada12:05
In reply to this message
Sweet, thanks a lot for the info, will try to set up a pds and generate a code for myself - @davidprieto:arada.club12:06From what I've been told, though, the BGS does not necessarily consume the whole thing. What happens in that case? Does the client download it from the original PDS?
- valka12:13The BGS does consume the whole thing, at least that's the idea. It consumes and indexes the entire stream of all data therefore it's a very large endeavor to run one. You could also theoretically run a BGS which only consumes a subset of data, but currently the BGS has all data, which prevents the pds getting overloaded when a traffic spike happens, for example if a post gets popular/goes viral
- ejmg12:54setting up a pds isn't hard, the instructions will get you up and going along with that setup script
- @davidprieto:arada.club12:55
Let's suppose the BGS Alice is using does not consume the whole thing, only whatever is necessary for it to function.
Would Alice's client download any necessary data from the original PDS?
- Kyle13:03I sent a support email last Monday and haven't heard back, any idea what else I can do? Need some account support(edited)
- retr0id13:12like, account recovery support? if I had to guess, they don't have robust procedures in place for that sort of thing yet
- Kyle13:17Yeah, that makes sense. I put myself on the waitlist again unless I can find an invite
- 13:40@richiyuuki:matrix.org joined the room
- Aaron Goldman15:33
Your User Agent always talks to your PDS. Your PDS then ether serves that data from cache or dose the request to Alice's PDS
- Your PDS cache
- Your PDS's BGS
- Alice's PDS
The assumption is that your PDS has much cheaper bandwidth than your User Agent.
If it can download and filter content only sending down content that did well in the ranking algorithm you will save client battery and bandwith. - moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org
- Aaron Goldman15:36Your PDS is probably caching repos of controller not on that PDS if the content is recent and popular, or pinned by one of its users. We have not even started thinking about the api for a user to indicate what content from other PDS's they want their PDS to Pin. But I think a pinning api will be important eventually. 🤷♂️
- 15:40
In reply to this message
If we are lucky there will be only one plc directory.
Not counting dev sandbox that gets deleted periodically and without warning.
There are plenty of other places to do censorship so hopefully we can just have the one very open directory. If we have politics then PDSs may end up needing to pick their directory and that would just add needless complexity.
- 15:43We talked about putting the directory you wanted to use in the DID Document so that the DID Document controller could pick one the liked. Much like how the CA system lets you pick your certificate authority. We ended up going the opposite way. Don't let the repo controller tell a PDS who to trust as a directory let the PDS pick who they want to trust.
- Aaron Goldman15:49So there is no directory in the DID Document you just callplc.directory. Someone like retr0id has a choose they can mirror theplc.directoryexactly as is or they could replace the
createdAt
with the time that thier server heard about the delta. - 15:52not too hard to miror just pull once a minute for DIDs after the last one you saw
- retr0id15:59
In reply to this message
I'm planning on preserving timestamps exactly, because they're important for verifying the 72h recovery key window - Aaron Goldman16:03My recommendation is that you serv us is an exact copy but that you also store in your SQL the time your server first saw a delta. That way ifplc.directorystarts giving new timestamps in the future or past you will have a record of what happened. The directory is the most centralized place in the protocol and we should assume it will become malevolent so that it doesn't.
- retr0id16:34fair enough
- Nezteb16:40
Quick Q about custom feeds: https://github.com/bluesky-social/feed-generator
I've got the feed generator hosted with the
whats-alf
example (but I renamed mine toelixir
, all the code is the same though), and I've filled out all the env vars set correctly. I ran the publish script, and got theDone
message with no errors. But I don't see the feed in the bigsky app. Do folks who have done this before have any good debugging tips?EDIT: The url for the feed is https://elixir-bluesky-feed.replit.app, and I kept the feedgen port to 3000, but the docs also say that the app needs to respond on port 443, so I'm not sure if I'm supposed to change that env var to 443? My replit logs do say
forwarding local port 3000 to external port 1104
, which I didn't specify, but trying that port doesn't seem to work either.If I do a
GET
for https://elixir-bluesky-feed.replit.app:3000/xrpc/app.bsky.feed.getFeedSkeleton?feed=at://did:example:alice/app.bsky.feed.generator/elixir my request just times out.(edited) - 17:44Mikayla Maki joined the room
- Mikayla Maki17:44Hi everyone :D
- 17:45Just been looking to contribute to bluesky, and getting plugged into the associated social spaces :)
- Aaron Goldman
- kcchu19:00
In reply to this message
I am not optimistic about the chance that a centralized DID won’t become an hot political area for moderation and censorship decisions, especially under this political polarized atmosphere. It is really the easiest pressure point for banning a user globally.(edited) - kcchu19:09And having PDS choose its directory mirror ofplc.directorywill results in inconsistency and fragmentation. e.g. users exists in some directory but not in other, and inconsistent DID document of the same user in different directories. This will cripple the UX because users have to choose PLC when signing up (a major pain point of Fediverse) and force users to stay on the latest directory because of the network effect.(edited)
- retr0id19:32I don't wanna say the b-word but maybe it could be useful for improving PLC
- 19:32because yeah, at some point there's gonna be pressure for censorship to happen at the PLC layer, and it would make a mess
- 19:32and I don't think censorship-resistance is a useful property for the network at large, but for PLC specifically it would make sense
- kcchu19:35I appreciate some kind of moderation but I would rather it happens on BGS or app layer which is closer to their users and there are freedom of choice. The DID directory is some critical infrastructure that we probably don’t want it to politicalize as much as we don’t want ICANN to politicalize
- retr0id
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org
- 19:53
There's also the interesting idea of nostr dids, but i don't think that would be the best thing for PLC to do
- kcchu20:04
In reply to this message
I skimmed it but couldn’t understand how the DID document modification will be stored. Is it in relay? Then what if the relay shut down? - moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org20:05usually you would publish to as many relays as possible.
- kcchu20:07When there is multiple source of truth there is consistency issues. What if the many relays return disagreeing data?
- scatterflower21:24why exactly is the wildcard dns record required for a multiple-user pds?
- Aaron Goldman22:04
In reply to this message
If I am user.mydomain.example then
http://user.mydomain.example/.well-known/atproto-did should return your DID. - 22:08So your handel should ether have a DNS record for _atproto.user.mydomain.example TXT did=your_did Or an A record direct you to a server that serves http://user.mydomain.example/.well-known/atproto-did
- 22:10If you have many users that are user.pds_name.example then *.pds_name.example is much easier than an A record for every existing user.
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org22:34
In reply to this message
fwiw, nostr uses cryptographic signatures and expects you to verify everything client-side - Aaron Goldman23:12-The- A annoying thing with identifiers is that you don't have to worry about forking the identity with disagreement between directories if you enforce the you send the same deltas in the same order. But the reason you need to rotate your key is exactly when you lose control of your key. So you don't need to worry about forking except in the situation that is why we need rotation in the first place. 😠
Tue, Jul 11, 2023
- 00:50@darknesstobright:matrix.org left the room
- @davidprieto:arada.club
- 01:22
In reply to this message
The way I understood it, a PLC is basically like a DNS server, but for users.
Don't DNS servers have the same problem? How do they handle it?
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org02:16retr0id: I did what you said not to do
https://psky.app/profile/shreyanjain.net/post/3k2a5fgycty2e - valka
- @davidprieto:arada.club03:40Sorry, what's the b-word?
- kcchu03:59
In reply to this message
DNS has very elaborated structure to separate power of each individual entity. Each TLD registries operates independently (e.g. .com is Verisign). ICANN approves and oversees individual registry’s policy.
ICANN controls the root zone but does not participate in day-to-day registration and dispute resolution. It adopted a multistakeholder model for governance to restrict influence from governments. Since 2016, it is freed from any oversight from US gov.
Individual domain name could be removed by a registry due to its policy or local law, but banning a user to have a DNS name in ALL TLD is very unlikely.
(edited) - 05:06Freezlex changed their profile picture
- kcchu
- 06:48Rishav joined the room
- Nezteb10:58
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Has anyone successfully deployed a custom feed before using the Bluesky feed generator template? - Aaron Goldman11:46retr0id: good eye this is grate
https://retr0-id.translate.goog/.well-known/atproto-did - 11:46they should definitely special case .well-known
- 11:47open redirects are all over the web
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org
- Aaron Goldman11:51Narwhal and Tusk https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.11827 was the one we considered before punting since there needs to be many PDS operators before PLC can mean PDS Legger Consortium.
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- slickdomique15:03hey! I'm not sure who's active here and what talks exactly are taking place here but I thought it's worth a try. Maybe you did see the post I made that updates itself with like and repost counter along with latest timestamp. While I made it funny, unharmful I think that's a pretty serious hole that could be used by malicious actor to steal credentials and boost other posts effectively fully occupying a what's hot feed with whatever they want. I'm not sure if ability to do that is oversight or a design decision but nevertheless ability to keep post with its activity but changing content and timestamp is not a good thing
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org15:25fwiw, i think this is more of a hole in the current implementation than the protocol itself. each record has two identifiers- the at:// uri, which is mutable, and the cid, which is immutable. the main change that has to happen is for appviews and clients to care more about the CIDs
- slickdomique15:26in my case at:// is still not changed though
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org15:27you can modify a record while keeping the same at:// uri, but the cid changes every time
- slickdomique15:28okay, got it. Yes, changing the focus from at to cid could fix this
- kcchu
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org20:50not necessarily, it allows modifying a record while preserving previous versions and their attached information. since all likes, reposts, replies, quotes, etc. all have both the at://uri and cid attached, it's pretty trivial to create a sort of "version history" and allow you to find out which version of a record all its referencing records were meant to be associated with
- Jazil Zaim21:23is there any possible plans for Stories in the future?
- 21:26or DMs?
- kcchu21:53
In reply to this message
Right, i shouldn’t say it is a bug as replacing a record is an intended function of the MST. But I think post editing is better implemented as adding record to the MST rather than replacing records to persist edit history. Even old edits are still stored in data repo, in theory old commits could be purged from the repo to compact data. And it is quite inefficient to enumerate data repo commits to lookup edit history of a post - Aaron Goldman
- 22:24we actually talk about this at the beginning
- 22:24we were try to decide whether to add a commit cid to the url
- 22:25at:// handle @ commit / path
- 22:25this would allow for ether a latest dereference or a at that commit dereference
- 22:27dholms decided that we could just as the cid to any record that had a at: url to serv as the fixed point rather than including it in the url.
- 22:28A client that is counting likes could use the cid to group the responses by the state of the record at the time it was referenced
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org22:29I'm guessing once putRecord is turned on it will be better for this purpose than the current delete, then createRecord with same rkey
- Aaron Goldman22:30granted they are not perfectly equivalent as including the hash of the commit is a commitment to the state of the full repo not just a commitment to the bytes of the post you are responding to
- 22:32but the mental model should be that a repo can update an existing record not just create new ones
- 22:36I get why having 3 ways to resolve a url is confusing but I still kinda wish we had the commit hash in the at: urls
- 22:37at least as an option
- retr0id23:41
In reply to this message
something I've been doing in my very WIP client isat://repo/collection/rkey#cid
(mainly as an informational thing) - 23:42like, purely in the frontend
- Aaron Goldman23:43you like the cid in the fragment better then the @ notation?(edited)
- retr0id23:46well, in my case it's a purely practical thing. visiting
http://webclient/at://repo/collection/rkey
renders a thread view, and each post has its HTML id attribute set to its corresponding CID, so the browser can jump to and highlight the linked post without any JS needed(edited) - Aaron Goldman23:47cool
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org23:48for actual protocol level stuff i would prefer the @ notation, since it simulates git
Wed, Jul 12, 2023
- moved to @shreyan:beeper.com@shreyanjain:matrix.org00:13it would also be nice if clients gave more respect to the createdAt on a record
- retr0id00:18in my client I have a hover tooltip that shows both timestamps
- Aaron Goldman00:21
But it is better than git.
git is broken because the branches don't have identity. If I give you a git hash and ask you to get the latest for that branch you can't
In theory you could have an index and find all commits that have your commit as a parent and recur to find all descendants but that would not give you an authoritative latest.This is why we end up in centralized services like git hub.
I can reference a file like
https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/blob/318736816c65e86a554e09cb9dc2e095dff636c4/README.md
but that is only a moment in time.I can reference a file like
https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/blob/main/README.md
but that is only the branch name and dose not commit to any particular stateI wanted a way to have all the commitment of a git hash and all the authoritative latest of a
GitHub.com/user/repository/branch/path
at://controller@commit/path
the controler means cryptographically strong authoritative updates and commit hash means a cryptographically strong commitment to the exact bytes of the whole repo. The web gets a new href for committed to bytes and authoritative updates. Without fear of losing your name because you didn't pay the name bill on time.
If I want to move from github to gitlab orexample.comI will break all the links out in the world. If I want to move from one PDS to a different PDS I just update the DID Document.Authenticated Data eXchange gives the opportunity for linked web of documents that have the git like powers of distributed version control and the http like powers of authoritative updates. Let's do to the web what git did to source code
The power of http by letting people register and control names.
The power of git by atomically moving from one commit to the next.
The ability to handle large fanout trees becuse MST avoids large directory problem.
The ability to handle very deep trees becuse MST avoids deep directory problem.
The ability to handle large files becuse we can brake in to a tree and MST is good at breadth and depth.Authenticated Data eXchange is a powerful primitive to build on.
- 01:28mssamantha joined the room
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Thu, Jul 13, 2023
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Fri, Jul 14, 2023
- Skyler Hawthorne00:10
Well this was a fun bug to find in
did:web
resolution - shreyan00:34That bug does indeed look very fun
- 00:35It's such a rare use case it's probably slipped completely under the radar so far
- 01:10justloyld (she/her) joined the room
- justloyld (she/her)01:11hey is there a general discussion room related to this or even a support for bluesky?
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- 02:23steve_coldham changed their display name to ambrose _j
- @steve_coldham:matrix.org07:19Message deleted by Aaron Goldman
- Skyler Hawthorne07:26
In reply to this message
I mean it's not that weird of a case, it's just ipv6. The bigger shocker to me is that there's a self-purported HTTP library that can't make requests to ipv6 hosts - 07:59Sarthak Walia joined the room
- 08:10omellko joined the room
- Skyler Hawthorne08:15
In reply to this message
Actually with a repl, doing a get on an ipv6 only host works just fine
axios.get('https://ipv6.google.com')
So maybe this really is an edge case with link local resolution
- retr0id08:36I believe thebsky.socialinfra is currently v4 only
- 08:36so it's not an issue with the codebase itself (I think?), just how its been deployed(edited)
- 08:38although re-reading Jacob's comment makes me assume there could be other logistical issues I haven't considered
- Skyler Hawthorne09:47
In reply to this message
This seems to be an issue with network requests to the host in the handle of the DID; I don't think it has anything to do with bsky's infra - retr0id09:48if their infra has no ipv6 network interface (which appears to be the case), they're gonna have a hard time connecting to v6-only hosts
- Skyler Hawthorne09:50
In reply to this message
My host is not v6 only, it's both. It just so happens that the FQDN is resolving to the link local address when the request is made from the same box, and that local address happens to be ipv6. The issue is the box making a request to itself, not to anything external - 09:51Take a read through the issue
- retr0id09:52oic
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Sat, Jul 15, 2023
- 04:00@glassofwater369:the-apothecary.club left the room
- Matthew07:37/me sends positive vibes to the bsky team, who look to be at the bottom of a massive dogpile
- 07:37(and notes thatmatrix.orgdoesn’t impose any rule matching on usernames at all at signup, and synapse doesn’t even have config for that; i wonder if we should :/)
- kcchu07:44+1 (Also the fact that bsky team took down the account within 40 minutes after it was reported and deployed SW changes to prevent this from happening again within days)
- Skyler Hawthorne07:45Any context for those of us still not invited?
- kcchu
- @davidprieto:arada.club08:03
In reply to this message
One user used a racial slur as their handle and was banned after 40 minutes; now big groups of people are harassing the devs and demanding that they apologize for the damage they caused. - Özkan Demir08:06I need invite code please 🙏
- @steve_coldham:matrix.org08:16Message deleted by Aaron Goldman
- @planetoryd:matrix.org
- @planetoryd:matrix.org08:24Matthew: have u talked to@iancjclarke:matrix.org, just in case. Is it actually a good idea to use his freenet to solve matrix's performance problem ?(edited)
- Matthew08:27i think we’ve already fixed matrix’s perf problems? https://element.io/blog/element-x-experience-the-future-of-element etc
- @planetoryd:matrix.org08:27I mean the full mesh routing problem
- Matthew08:28at least i’m in 5000 rooms containing around 650K users, and it works ok for me :)
- 08:28i’m not sure fullmesh is a big problem atm for matrix perf tbh.arewep2pyet.comis the long term solution to this though
- 08:28although p2p work is currently on hold due to funding problems :|
- @planetoryd:matrix.org08:28It still works like Email, right, which forwards a message to every server
- Matthew08:29(i’ll get into trouble if i talk about matrix in here tho - thanks to the pointer to ian tho; didn’t know he was in matrix)
- @planetoryd:matrix.org
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- @taylor_smith:matrix.org18:51Message deleted by Aaron Goldman
- jmcasey18:52tell me more
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Sun, Jul 16, 2023
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- Aaron Goldman09:47I would prefer 🎵 beats 🎵but it doesn't look like it is going that way.
- m1kola11:37Most of the time I refer to social media posts as "posts". Facebook post, twitter post. Probably a habit from forums. I think I'm old fashioned.
- Aaron Goldman11:38Posts sounds good to me
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- m1kola12:41I'm looking into running PDS (want to play with sandbox). In the readme I see mentions of Digital Ocean and Vultr for hosting, but I would like to run it locally (I'm being lazy - don't want to deal with cloud providers at this point). Before I go down this route - are there any pitfalls? Does it make sense at all? The plan is to fiddle a bit with my DNS (my IP is dynamic and I will either be manually updating DNS records or will come up with a script for that) and to make my router accept ingress traffic and forward it to my machine.
- 12:41alexwwww joined the room
- Aaron Goldman12:51
In reply to this message
The PDS won't help you with the dynamic DNS. As you say you would need your own script for that. When your PDS is unreachable other PDSs won't be able to fetch the heads of your user's repos but once they have repos catched locally they will have the data.
Set up with flakey connectivity to a PDS is a good test case for the federation. The ideals of authenticated data is that once you give the repo to anyone they can share it around so following a repo on a flakey PDS should not be a problem.
Obviously the users of your PDS can't publish new posts when the PDS is not reachable.
- 12:52In the extreme case of a PDS that is gone forever there will not be new head retrieval but the repo in the world will remain valid as long as someone has a copy
- m1kola13:01Yeah, after reading on federation I got the impression that architecture should be resilient to PDS disappearing completely. It was explicitly called out somewhere that users should be able to migrate to another PDS using a copy. Given that + the fact that shit happens (outages, etc) I assumed that bringing PDS down should be fine.
- 13:02Thanks for your answer. Hopefully I'll have some time next week to try this. Will keep you posted in case of any issues :)
- retr0id13:03something you might want to consider, as a slightly more resilient alternative to ddns: https://tailscale.com/blog/introducing-tailscale-funnel/
- m1kola13:08Thanks for the suggestion. IIRC I tried tailscale for something similar but ended up just updating DNS for some reason. My domains are with cloudflare and it is pretty easy to update records with them both manually and programmatically. But I might give it another go.
- 13:53Jacob changed their profile picture
- retr0id14:15oh if you're already using cloudflare, they do have a similar product to tailscale funnel
- 14:15cloudflare tunnel, I think
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- @taylor_smith:matrix.org17:12Message deleted by Aaron Goldman
- Sabir Ibrahim17:23It's odd that spammers would target a platform that's so far off the mainstream radar.
- 17:25@rin:psps.cat left the room
- retr0id17:42matrix pretty big as a whole, lots of spammers to go around
- 18:57shreyan changed their display name to off the grid (shreyan)
- Skyler Hawthorne22:24
So far, my understanding is that a PDS signs your posts and hosts them, and that your DID document contains the public key of the repo signing key, which is shared across all accounts of the PDS.
If you were to move to a different PDS, e.g. move to your own after Bluesky's instance is federated, what happens to your data? Does it somehow get copied to the new PDS and re-signed with the PDS's key, or is all content left in the original PDS and still referenced whenever old posts are queried?
- Aaron Goldman22:47
In reply to this message
The thing that is signed is not a post but a repo containing all posts that you have not removed. When you move to a new PDS upload the full repo to the new PDS and update your DID Document. The next post you send to the new PDS has signed the root of the repo so all not removed posts are now being served from the new PDS. - 22:48If the old PDS is still up then you probably want to have the new PDS get the repo from the old PDS if it is gone or for some other reason not hosting your repo anymore then you will need to upload the repo from your user agent
- Aaron Goldman23:58Side note / personal pet peeve: The AtProto does not say anything about who signs the commits only that they are signed. One of the main values of the merkle hash trees in general and MST in particular is that it makes it cheap to have client side signing of the repository. This is because when I add a record to the tree I only need the path to the root to sign the new repo I don't need the bulk of the repo to fit on the client. The current fairly centralized implementation of the demo PDS dose all the signing server side but the keys that sign the commits to the repo and deltas to the DID Document can live on the client for responsible users or on the server for users that don't trust themselves with key management.
Mon, Jul 17, 2023
- Aaron Goldman00:01While you probably want a rescue phrase for the DID on a physical paper you can store security. There you may not need the repo keys to be anything other than non-extractable keys in the TPMs of your personal devices.
- Aaron Goldman00:22The roles that the PDS are responsible for by protocol are being the repo host of last resort and acceptor of a new head. By having a host of last resort we cap retrieval latency. Caches can improve performance but performance can't fall below that of the PDS. By having an acceptor for updating the head we can have ACID properties. If a commit would have violated the ACID properties by becoming the new head the PDS simply dose not accept the new head and the client must rebace and retry or accept the failure to update.
- retr0id01:54
In reply to this message
iiuc you can only have one repo signing key at any given time, right now (unlike plc rotation keys), which would make using multiple devices a bit awkward if you wanted non-extractable keys on each.(edited) - 03:11@davidprieto:arada.club left the room
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- Skyler Hawthorne06:44
In reply to this message
Interesting, thanks for the detailed reply! I'm specifically considering the case of how to move off of bsky's instance once they turn on federation. How would I transfer the repo to my PDS once this is possible? - @taylor_smith:matrix.org06:48Message deleted by Aaron Goldman
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- retr0id13:47why hasn't t@taylor_smith:matrix.org been banned yet lmao
- 13:49
In reply to this message
getrepo, and all your blobs, and your preferences json, and some way to export your mute list (there's an xrpc to enumerate them but I don't know off the top of my head) - 13:49and probably a few other things I'm forgetting
- retr0id14:04oh feed subscriptions are outside of the repo too, I think they might be in the preferences json though
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- Matthew
- 19:18
In reply to this message
matrix is trying to be mainstream, much as bluesky. complete with spam :| - Skyler Hawthorne20:31
In reply to this message
I mean if anything it can be seen as a weird kind of success. Enough people are using it that spammers find it worth their time - @parfait:filly.chat20:34
In reply to this message
sounds like this chat could use a mjolnir bot or a few other moderators - 20:41@tthh5577:matrix.org left the room
- retr0id
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Tue, Jul 18, 2023
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Wed, Jul 19, 2023
- denis02:04
Hi folks. We are working on our implementation of ATProto.
We checked Bluesky FAQ and there are some interesting answers to our questions. Currently the main problem for us is Bluesky team decision to use lexicon and xrpc.
Unfortunately, DX of those new custom protocols is not good enough for us. So we prefer to see OpenAPI spec for the protocol. It will allow us to use rich ecosystem of tools built around it.
So we started kinda fork of the protocol to define resources in terms of OpenAPI. But maybe there are some projects which already are doing something similar? We would like to avoid double efforts.
Thanks
- 04:02denis set a profile picture
- @numero6:codelutin.com
- denis04:04
In reply to this message
we don’t have a public room yet because it requires more collaboration efforts and we are super limited in resources.
but we plan to launch it in September
- denis04:11
btw I’m a person who sent you the email about customising typify from oxide for ATProto a while ago
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- bnewbold13:25Lexicons line up pretty closely with JSON-Schema and OpenAPI, though they also handle things like WebSocket stream with CBOR data (the firehose)
- 13:25a few weeks ago we iterated on the specs atatproto.com, with a lot more details about Lexicons, the overall data model, etc
- 13:26there are some projects like https://github.com/rdmurphy/atproto-openapi-types which automatically turn Lexicons in to OpenAPI specs
- 13:27similar things could be built for all the other popular schema definition languages and API tooling systems. at the end of the day, this is all just JSON over HTTP, which is extremely common and simple to work with
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Thu, Jul 20, 2023
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Fri, Jul 21, 2023
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- Public Universal Girlfriend10:25Hope you're all doing well, miss everyone enjoying the TL
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- Aaron Goldman19:05
In reply to this message
My advice is to focus more on interoperability at the repo layer than the API/xrpc layer.
As long as repos are signed it's an implementation detail of how you got the blocks. xrpc, Open API rest API, mailed a hardrive full of repos to someone, ... whatever.
- 19:07Wire protocols are a matter of support on both ends and so can mutate a lot over time. Persistence formats are forever or they take the stored data down with them.
- 19:09Moving git from ssh to https no big deal. Moving git from Sha2 to Sha256 the transition will never be "complete"
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Sat, Jul 22, 2023
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Sun, Jul 23, 2023
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- Skyler Hawthorne08:47
In reply to this message
Very confused by this. HTTP / JSON is about as standard as it gets. Pretty much the only uncommon thing is the path component of URIs and the way the schema is communicated. - kcchu09:15Message deleted
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- denis14:06Fully agree here, thanks for the suggestion
- denis14:24I agree that JSON itself is pretty straightforward. However, there is a gap between OpenAPI tooling vs lexicon tooling. For example, Swift OpenAPI generator was released recently. It makes CI much easier.
- Aaron Goldman17:41How long would it take to write a lexicon to Open API yaml converter 🤔
- denis19:06It feels like bluesky dev community sometimes uses too sarcastic tone of voice to answer simple questions about alignment with existing standards. Kinda cool kids vibes. Pretty dissapointing.
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- Aaron Goldman22:22Not sure if you totally follow this comment. There is certainly a lot of sarcasm but also trying to be inclusive as a community. Can you give a little more detail on where we made you feel excluded? Our community only stays healthy if we retro exclusive interactions.
- kcchu22:33(Move my reply into thread) I think the value of lexicon is a schema for extensible and composable types. IMO OpenAPI spec isn’t a good fit because the scheme is expected to be centrally maintained. If anything JSON-LD would be closer as an alternative(edited)
Mon, Jul 24, 2023
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- ThatLinuxUser06:24Hey, are you allowed to ask for invites in this chat room?
- 06:25Sorry for asking
- @red6leader9:matrix.org06:28
Asking if you’re allowed to ask for invites? Interesting strategy lol
Edit: don’t mind my bad grammar, I am a native English speaker educated in the US.
(edited) - ThatLinuxUser06:29lol
- @planetoryd:matrix.org06:31I never wanted to ask invites. Do not send me an invite.
- @red6leader9:matrix.org06:31Stand up your own PDS, demand federation, demand decentralization, fuck unions, get rich, hail capitalism. Don’t know what else you can do.
- @planetoryd:matrix.org06:33I got random DMs from this room for invites, by lurking for 2 minutes(edited)
- ThatLinuxUser06:34I'm really not surprised and probably bogs this place down
- 06:35starts dming people
- @red6leader9:matrix.org06:35But seriously, if you actually run Linux just stand up your own PDS.
- ThatLinuxUser06:35(/j)
- 06:36Wait you can already start a new instance?
- 06:37I thought that was still in development
- 06:37(not instance, PDS)
- @red6leader9:matrix.org06:37The instructions on GitHub made it seem doable
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- ThatLinuxUser
- @red6leader9:matrix.org
- 06:43The fact they are using GitHub rather than GitLab upsets me but w/e
- ThatLinuxUser06:46I'll certainly look into doing that after work, thank you!
- @red6leader9:matrix.org06:47The invite only gimmick, with all the promises for “creators, developers, and users” seems like another social media platform circa 2013
- ThatLinuxUser06:50I mean the platform is practically emulating pre-2016 Twitter right now
- 06:50But I absolutely see what you mean, it's like something you'd hear when 'Web 2.0' was a common phrase(edited)
- ThatLinuxUser
- 07:36Oh I can see why PDS isn't exactly big yet, as it seems to not fully replace the need for invites in order to join.
- 07:36I'm still going to do it regardless, thank you!
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- @red6leader9:matrix.org09:25Well, again, until the Bluesky devs implement federation, you’re on your own social media island, but that’s the point. It doesn’t allow you to talk to Bluesky Socials network until they allow it AND you allow it. You’re always in control of what you see and who sees you.
- 09:26The issue is none of us know what Bluesky looks like right now, or specifically how it’s better than diaspora or mastodon.
- 09:27
Stuff like this paints a grim picture tho.
“Don’t monopolize the conversation
We welcome engagement, but if you are always the noisiest poster, the mods may ask you to take a step back to make room for others.”
- Public Universal Girlfriend09:33Is that from mastodon or a bluesky doc I haven't seen?
- @red6leader9:matrix.org09:33Blueskys matrix chat rules 😅
- 09:36They also talk about concepts like using the ACLU as a source of moderation.
- Public Universal Girlfriend09:36That's more of a polite don't be a jerk rule, I think
- @red6leader9:matrix.org09:37Maybe, but it doesn’t bode well for decentralized platforms imo
- @planetoryd:matrix.org09:38s@samme:schizo.cafe: nice domain name
- 09:59@emmanuel_davidsone:matrix.org changed their profile picture
- shreyan
- @red6leader9:matrix.org10:37Well, unless they’ve developed some crazy new methodology that has never been theorized before. Moderation requires centralized control at some level, last I checked, that was the opposite of what we are aiming for with decentralized social media
- Public Universal Girlfriend10:42I think most people seeking it are looking to define rules within their own spaces and hope to have everyone have their own space, which naturally requires that people moderate their own spaces.
- kcchu10:42Moderation usually requires authorities, but it doesn’t have to be one centralized authority. Email spam filtering can be considered a form of moderation, and it can be done by individual services without centralized (aka singular) control(edited)
- @red6leader9:matrix.org10:46
In reply to this message
Except today, most spam filtering is provided by several of maybe a dozen sources, and unless you run your own email server, you are at the mercy of whoever your email provider chooses. - shreyan10:47
In reply to this message
That rule is specifically for this Matrix chat, not BlueSky as a whole :0 - @red6leader9:matrix.org10:48Yes, but per blueskys own documentation, they want to allow ACLU to provide content filters and moderation tags.
- shreyan10:49not just the ACLU, of course. The ACLU is just one example of an org who might run a moderation service
- Brad Brown10:57and it's used literally just as an example of "anyone can provide labels/tags for anyone else who so chooses to make use of"
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:10
So let’s say Bluesky uses ACLU or any org, doesn’t matter really, for its content moderation. Why does that org have access to my content? Unless they are given some kind of special permissions by Bluesky.
Alternatively, I saw something about community moderation. What’s to stop a country’s government from using this to silence dissidents.
- 11:12Either my content is mine and I can control who sees it and what content I see or there’s centralized control, even if its several centralized controls.
- shreyan11:14being able to control who sees your content is the wrong way to think about it. imagine it more like people being able to control what content they see
- @planetoryd:matrix.org
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:16
In reply to this message
So creators have no control over their content once it’s on the platform? IE today I can block whoever I want on twitter and they can’t see my content.(edited) - Brad Brown11:24
In reply to this message
You get to control what you put out into the world, and readers get to control what they choose to see. - @red6leader9:matrix.org11:28Sounds like more of the same big social media. We make the content, platform owns the content.
- shreyan11:29not really, it's basically how the open web works. you can publish anything you want, and those who want to read it can read it
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:29Yes but I can limit who access my content on basically every current platform.
- 11:29In this model, I have no control over who views it.
- Brad Brown11:30are you wanting to force people to see your stuff when they've chosen not to?
- shreyan11:31you can block people on bluesky, but also, even on platforms, being able to limit who accesses your content is an illusion when something is on the public web
- @red6leader9:matrix.org
- 11:34If I don’t want my ex to see my pictures of my new girlfriend and kids, I should be able to reasonably prevent that without explicitly blocking her. If basically any org is granted view all privileges to my data, that’s not even reasonably possible.
- foxlet11:35Has the invite waiting list moved up at all?
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:37I shouldn’t have to block everyone at my company to ensure my employer doesn’t have access to my social media.
- shreyan11:38...how do you do this on existing platforms?
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:40I limit who can view my content?
- 11:41Facebook calls it a friends list, and I can limit posts to only friends.
- shreyan11:41as in creating a private account?
- 11:42bluesky's design right now is not really good for private data but someday it could be
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:42If it isn’t built for data privacy from the start, it will never be good for data privacy.
- Public Universal Girlfriend11:43I think you answered your own questions, then.
- shreyan11:43it's a bit strange to expect "designed for data privacy" from a protocol explicitly built for public data and conversation
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:44Matrix is built for conversation and interconnecting tons of public data.
- 11:44Is it really strange to demand privacy?
- @planetoryd:matrix.org11:45public content. private PII.
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:47My email is tied to my account on Bluesky?
- shreyan11:47To say Matrix is especially good at privacy is also a misleading argument - there's currently a bot run bymatrix.orgthat crawls public matrix rooms to archive their content
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:47Public rooms you say?
- shreyan11:47
In reply to this message
onbsky.social, yes - another PDS can choose to tie your identity to something else - @red6leader9:matrix.org11:49
Meaning it can join those rooms because the content owners have made the decision to allow anyone to join.
I can create private rooms on
matrix.org, or dozens of other home servers that may not be federated tomatrix.org. Suggesting matrix is not built for privacy is misleading. It may not be great at it yet, but it was certainly designed with privacy in mind. - shreyan11:50that's true
- 11:50however matrix and bluesky's purposes are very different
- 11:51one of them is explicitly for chat-style conversations like this one, while the other one is designed like the web itself but with more social interactions
- @red6leader9:matrix.org11:57It’s designed like the web itself? I don’t think so. It’s more designed to draw in users with promises of control and then impose its creators views on them. Content moderation by anyone other than individual users themselves will always be a giant mistake, as it fundamentally requires data be viewable by people the user doesn’t necessarily want viewing it.
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- Sabir Ibrahim13:54
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That's kind of an inherent aspect of it though. You simply can't escape centralization entirely. There can't be spokes without hubs. For example, there are extremely few people who host their own email server. Most everyone just relies on third parties like Google, Microsoft, et al.
The whole point of data portability is that if you don't like the policies of the server you're on, you can pack up, go elsewhere, and not miss a beat. My understanding is that's part of the reason Bluesky decided to create a new protocol instead of just building on top of ActivityPub.
- @red6leader9:matrix.org13:56Data portability is great, and agreed, we always need some solid hubs to act as the connection points, but that doesn’t mean they should have access to our data.
- @red6leader9:matrix.org14:05Don’t get me wrong, I think data portability is a HUGE accomplishment and very important feature.
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- pizzaknight15:33
In reply to this message
Users can always run their own PDS and clients to exercise full control over moderation if they want, it isn't a hard fast rule that moderation be handled by third-parties on Bluesky. - 15:36also you want a private experience, then ignore bluesky, spin up your own client + PDS, disconnect from bluesky's BGS and all public indexers, there, private experience.
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- Aaron Goldman17:28
In reply to this message
One analogy I like for why you might want authenticated data is the comparison between a phone call and a bookstore. If you ask everyone that wants to learn from you to call you then you can give custom answers to each caller. For example not sharing with one specific person. But it is inherently expensive as you have to have enough bandwidth to talk to each and every individual that wishes to learn from you.
If you publish a book you record the ideas once. Someone who gets a copy of your book can make a copy. There's a lot of ancient wisdom where we don't have the originals. We do have the copies of the copies of the copies of the copies of the copies. But this comes at a cost. If you publish a book and it is in bookstores newsstands and libraries you can't then say "but that one guy I don't like is not allowed to read it".
AtProto is a protocol for authenticated data exchange.
Does my belief that this can fundamentally change the economics of content distribution.
HTTPS gives you nice properties that AtProto does not have. However the unlimited ability to cash the data anywhere and index the data anywhere without losing authenticity changes the Nash equilibrium that led to a small number of very large social media providers. - kcchu19:47
In reply to this message
Exactly. There is a dozen of large spam filtering services (plus many smaller services), not one service. And users could easily switch to another service if what they are using become too shitty. Companies may also enter the market without much barrier. Users may also choose to not use any spam filtering service if they want to.
I think this model is pretty good for social network moderation too
- Aaron Goldman20:14Choosing not to use anything for filtering is probably a bad idea and you will get mostly ads.
- @red6leader9:matrix.org20:14Not if everything is opt in…I should never see ads on a decentralized and open source platform unless I’ve subscribed to that.
- Aaron Goldman20:43
In reply to this message
Ah, that is explicitly counter to the original goals of AtProto. RSS is actually quite good at just following feeds. The goals with AtProto were explicitly around a big world view of data.
There was value in the fact that Twitter was one big conversation. Then you could follow a hashtag and interact with people who you would have never met or otherwise interacted with. Activity Pub let's re-posts jump from server to server and get great distance but only for posts not really tags or topics. What was needed was a way to make something very crawlable by making it cheap to check for or subscribe to updates. - 20:43This is what makes the BGS much cheaper than a https search engine
- @red6leader9:matrix.org
- 20:47Okay, that changes my viewpoint, a lot.
- 20:48I actually forgot hashtags had an functional purpose beyond people being obnoxious trying to get retweets and likes.
- Aaron Goldman20:53For some people being obnoxious gives them purpose 😔
- @red6leader9:matrix.org20:54Okay, I kinda get it now. I’m still not sold on the content moderation portion, but given the context I think it’s a moral compromise
- Aaron Goldman20:54But there are definitely use cases where matrix fit's much better
- @red6leader9:matrix.org20:55I mean, matrix doesn’t do groups or comments or threads very well. There is a LOT matrix doesn’t do and it shouldn’t do.
- 20:57
I think in terms of imbedded chat, sure matrix is the future.
But I’d love for a twitter replacement that is free and open, but I guess secure/private is a little bit different of a question and I need to adjust the lens I’m looking at it through
(edited) - Aaron Goldman20:58The thing is that there are multiple parties that each have preference. The publisher has things they want to say. The client has things they want to hear. The infrastructure provider has things they don't want to host. For personal or legal reasons. A publisher can find a PDS that is willing to host them or run their own. The client will pick a PDS whose moderation preference mach their own. The PDS will subscribe to content labelers that help the not host things they find objectionable
- @red6leader9:matrix.org20:59Can I quote that to others?
- 21:00That really clearly paints a picture of bluesky that’s understandable.
- Aaron Goldman21:00I imagine a content labeler that is just doing legal in your country will be much cheaper than one doing viewpoint labeling
- 21:01I think our blog post about this was titled "freedom of speech not freedom of reach"
- kcchu21:30Message deleted
- kcchu21:37
In reply to this message
Maybe I misunderstood your view, but i think ads are not antithetical to decentralization or open source. Ads shown by the service you use in a decentralized social network seems okay to me, as long as users have choice. - @red6leader9:matrix.org21:40
In reply to this message
Yea, that’s agreeable. I just don’t want user on PDS A to agree to ads and I as a user on PDS B who is federated with PDS A to also receive those ads directly from advertisers, unless a user reposts them. - jcon22:29hello everyone, can anyone slide me an invite?
- @red6leader9:matrix.org22:31
Build your own PDS, then federate with the staging environment. If you can do that and make a meaningful commit to the project you’ll probably get one.
Disclosure: I have no interest in actually getting you an invite, the whole thing reminds me of Ello, I just wanna see as many PDSs built as possible as quickly as possible.
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Tue, Jul 25, 2023
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- @embers-sub:comm.cx
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- shreyan11:32there is a third party project which allows that
- ThatLinuxUser12:02Thinking about it who actually has access to bluesky in this chatroom
- ThatLinuxUser12:02Message deleted
- ThatLinuxUser12:02I am still going to set up a staging PDS lol
- 12:03But I wanna determine if this chatroom is more for people to yell into the void for invites(edited)
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- 12:04Theo joined the room
- @wvrld:matrix.org12:05as like i own one but i thought you can have only sandbox version
- ThatLinuxUser12:05It is
- 12:05But it also seems to help with development
- @wvrld:matrix.org12:05but as soon as it will be possible to own staging pds
- 12:05i am gonna own one 😂
- ThatLinuxUser
- @red6leader9:matrix.org12:06Well, based on the name and room description on blueskys website, I’m gonna guess this room is mostly for software devs building of ATP and contributing to the source code
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- ThatLinuxUser12:07
In reply to this message
Though devs are hard to come by in here 🤔
But obviously that is the intended use - 12:07Maybe I should retract the "into the void for invites part", though that has certainly happened before.
- @wvrld:matrix.org12:08matrix isnt that popular
- ThatLinuxUser12:10For everyday users, yeah. Though do bare in mind it's still often used by developers... And governments apparently.
- 12:11It has its niche is what I'm saying
- ThatLinuxUser15:18I have set up a PDS but I am not able to actually interact in the dev environment because I keep getting "User not Found" and "Actor Not Found", any suggestions to how I should debug?
- @wvrld:matrix.org15:19did you setup the dns properly ?
- ThatLinuxUser15:21I have the A records pointing to my domain name of choice and the my domain name was entered while doing the bluesky automatic setup
- 15:22Perhaps I should've done the manual install?
- @wvrld:matrix.org15:22and did you setup the *.linuxnerd.party
- ThatLinuxUser15:22(This is on a hetzner vps, not on a local server if I need to say that.)
- @wvrld:matrix.org15:23nope, just in your DNS you need to have those records
- 15:23wait
- ThatLinuxUser
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- 15:24it needs to look like this
- 15:24pointing to IP of server
- ThatLinuxUser15:24I've done it
- @wvrld:matrix.org15:24normally it takes about 3 minutes to update
- 15:25you can check it in https://dnschecker.org/
- 15:25looks good
- 15:25should work now
- ThatLinuxUser15:25Okay
- ThatLinuxUser15:31That still didn't fix it
- @wvrld:matrix.org15:31really ?
- ThatLinuxUser
- 15:31Any other suggestions?
- @wvrld:matrix.org15:32can we go private, show me the DNS configuration
- 15:32also
- 15:32do you have open ports ?
- ThatLinuxUser15:32I'll check that.
- @wvrld:matrix.org15:32yep
- 15:33$ sudo ufw allow 80/tcp $ sudo ufw allow 443/tcp
- 15:33like this
- ThatLinuxUser15:33I know how to open ports
- @wvrld:matrix.org15:34sorry, it wasnt meant to be rude, just to save you time
- 15:35also i am not sure if thats causing the error but i have my pds on subdomain and i also used the auto script
- ThatLinuxUser15:37Given ubuntu firewall wasn't even on (obviously I turned it on and opened those ports) I don't think ports are the problem.
- 15:38Honestly I thought those were part of the auto script, seems to have not been the case lol
- @wvrld:matrix.org15:38hmm, like its really weird, i installed mine this morning and it is working smoothly
- 18:51@pita_789.:matrix.org joined the room
- 20:50nerd joined the room
- ThatLinuxUser23:10So looking at this none of my DIDs or my PDS actually shows up on https://atscan.net
- 23:10This leaves me somewhat confused to what the problem could be
Wed, Jul 26, 2023
- 00:26saucehammer joined the room
- 01:27ubanis joined the room
- 02:12saucehammer changed their profile picture
- 04:23@likecoin:matrix.org left the room
- retr0id05:08atscan's DID listings are according toplc.directory(and the sandbox equivalent)
- 05:11PDS listings likewise, I believe
- 05:17@sages:envs.net left the room
- 05:39classofaspect joined the room
- classofaspect05:40Hello, i just wanted to ask something: What determines how fast people get invite codes?
- retr0id05:53every time someone asks, the next invite code drop is delayed by an hour
- classofaspect05:56It's just, i'm waiting for two weeks and i'm curious. It doesn't seem that there's an answer though. Also, does it happen that often? I skimmed through messages and didn't find anyone else ask that, yet.
- 05:58I do see many people asking for the codes themselves though.
- retr0id06:01If you're on the waitlist, expect to wait ~forever
- 06:02you're more likely to get an invite through someone you know, than through the waitlist
- classofaspect06:03Well then, that's unfortunate.
- ThatLinuxUser09:29
In reply to this message
I set up the DNS records first then did the automated install, runningwget https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bluesky-social/pds/main/installer.sh
sudo bash installer.sh
- ThatLinuxUser09:34
In reply to this message
As far as I'm concerned the best chances of getting one currently is magically getting a hold of Jack Dorsey or Bluesky's CEO lmao(edited) - 09:36If anything I'd say get mastodon in the mean time as that'd probably fill the void, given that's already what a large part of Twitter's former users migrated to.(edited)
- 09:41@chadkoh:matrix.org left the room
- 10:21josh Gray joined the room
- josh Gray10:24Does federation exist yet? I can't seem to find answers on Google.
- 10:25I'd be interested in self-hosting Mastadon style or joining an alternative instance
- josh Gray10:32Alternatively, is there a bridge between AT and ActivityPub?
- @planetoryd:matrix.org
- shreyan10:35you can try the federation sandbox for now, but you won't be federating withbsky.social
- josh Gray10:35Oh I see
- 10:35Thank you
- 10:36Is federating something they're doing soon? Or is it more of a long-term goal?
- shreyan10:37I would guess they turn it on sometime in the next few months, but that's just a guess
- Sabir Ibrahim12:28
In reply to this message
I would imagine that this is a feature that requires a LOT of testing and QA given what's at stake, so I definitely don't fault Bluesky for taking its time with it. - @red6leader9:matrix.org12:31Yea I think bluesky missed a big opportunity to take over some market competition by not opening up invites prior to Threads debut
- Sabir Ibrahim12:33
In reply to this message
I really hope that Bluesky and W3 (steward of ActivityPub) can work together and and find a way for the two protocols to federate or at least communicate on some level so that we don't end up with another format war. But if not, I guess that opens up opportunities for companies to build third party integrations. - @red6leader9:matrix.org12:34Aren’t we already there essentially?
- 12:38@madpat:wolfcave.me left the room
- @planetoryd:matrix.org
- shreyan12:43that is a strong opinion
- @red6leader9:matrix.org12:43that IS a strong opinion and I’m all about it. Tell me more(edited)
- @planetoryd:matrix.org12:44Read their docs and that's exactly the reason they invented a new protocol
- shreyan
- Sabir Ibrahim12:45
In reply to this message
Technically yes, but the concept of decentralized content platforms is still nascent and off-the-radar for most people. Even in tech circles, the discourse is dominated by "sexier" trends like AI and crypto. If and when decentralized platforms and federation take center stage, a format war will be a bigger problem. - shreyan12:46
In reply to this message
is that centralization, or just tying accounts too much to the server? - @planetoryd:matrix.org12:46Both
- @red6leader9:matrix.org12:47I guess their theory is tying accounts to a server IS centralization
- 12:47Which I don’t disagree with
- @planetoryd:matrix.org12:48Also you have load balancing problems. Tying an account to a server make you vulnerable to bans and censorship
- ThatLinuxUser12:49
In reply to this message
Do remember it's only in beta right now, I highly doubt they'd be developing the AT protocol if the goal was purely centralization(edited) - Sabir Ibrahim12:50
In reply to this message
Yeah but it's a huge leap to say that ActivityPub sucks just because AT Protocol has advantages in some areas. Like most things in life, each has its pluses and minuses. - @red6leader9:matrix.org
- ThatLinuxUser12:51Ah sorry, I don't think?
- 12:51To refer to Sabir's statement(edited)
- Sabir Ibrahim12:52
In reply to this message
In reply toThatLinuxUser
To refer to Sabir's statementIn reply to
@thatlinuxnerd:envs.net
To refer to Sabir's statementWhat do you mean? I don't follow.
(edited) - @planetoryd:matrix.org12:54
In reply to this message
“everything has pros and cons" true and useless statement. Do you have any technological (or of anything worthy) argument to back your support for Activitypub. - 12:58@pine:catgirl.cloud joined the room
- 12:58@pine:catgirl.cloud left the room
- Sabir Ibrahim12:59
In reply to this message
Bro, I'm not supporting ActivityPub. I actually think Bluesky/AT Protocol have more potential than Mastodon/ActivityPub. What I'm saying is that there's no need to go to the mattresses on this issue. This ain't the Cold War, my guy. - 13:35@rimuru:gentoo.chat changed their profile picture
- ThatLinuxUser13:57
In reply to this message
What you said in regards to it being a leap to say ActivityPub sucks because of AT Protocol's advantages. Sorry if I was unclear. - Sabir Ibrahim
- 14:34Sorry if I'm slow. I didn't have my coffee this morning, lol.
- ThatLinuxUser15:02I said that in response to redleader stating that ActivityPub's (goal?) was centralization.
- 15:03Looking through the discussion I might've misunderstood something, I'm still very new to the AT Protocol and bluesky.(edited)
- 15:03¯\_(ツ)_/¯(edited)
- Aaron Goldman15:40p@planetoryd:matrix.org: r@red6leader9:matrix.org: Let's try to keep criticisms more technical and less ad homonym. E.g. " Placing a domain name you don't control in your ID can leave you dependent on the domain name controller. " Is probably better than " Activitypub is inherently centralized and sucks "
- 15:40Thanks 🙏
- Aaron Goldman15:48
In reply to this message
Interop is a tricky topic. Activity Pub thinks in terms of connection and AtProto thinks in terms of signed content.
The AtProto repo is self authenticated data so if you distributed the repo using Activity Pub it should just work but when putting Activity Pub events into an AtProto repo who signs that repo?
You could have a bridge that witnesses that the events were retrieved with https and trust the testimony of the bridge but it is still a little awkward.
- 15:49Frankly AtProto and Nostr are far more likely to merge or interoperate than AtProto and Activity Pub
- 15:49As they are both authenticated data(edited)
- 15:50Trusted connections and trusted content are just different kinds of approaches.
- 15:52Obviously my personal opinion is that trusted content can scale much further. Primarily because it can be cached and reshared without knowing the author's keys.
- Drewry Pope15:55That would be neat, though the protocols seem somewhat different
- Sabir Ibrahim
- Aaron Goldman16:24It's annoyingly hard to have 10 years experience with a 1 year old protocol
- 16:49Oliver joined the room
- retr0id16:57unless you're a 10x dev, of course
- shreyan
- 20:21pzingg joined the room
- pzingg20:25
I am experimenting with an idea of multiple user "personas" all under the umbrella of a single identity, which is represented by a did.
Each persona has its own display name, user name, domain name, and profile information (description, avatar, banner).
The identity did holds the single hashed password for authentication. Any of the personas linked to the did can use this password for authentication.
The thing I'm finding difficult to understand from the Bluesky protocols, is where the private keys for the "signing key" (a public-private keypair) and for the "rotation keys" (each one a keypair) come from, and if and where they need to be stored.
The
indigo repositoryseems to use a single, server-wide signing key, read at start up from a "server.key" file on disk in the functioncmd.laputa.main.run
.When user accounts are created in the
pds.handlers.handleComAtprotoServerCreateAccount
function, the recovery key is optional and is passed in via arguments.
Its did (public key, potentially empty) is stored with the user, and if the key is not given in the command input, the server-wide signing key is used as the single rotation key for the did that is created for the user.The command-line command
gosky newAccount
does not parse or send a recovery key, so in effect the user always has an empty string itsrecoveryKey
field.To sign documents and verify documents, indigo uses a
KeyManager
interface. When signing, the KeyManager must hold a valid private keypair in itssigningKey
field, although this seems never to be set. Instead, the only signing is inside theapi.plc.CreateDID
function, which gets passed the server-wide signing key as an argument.To verify did documents, the document is resolved and the KeyManager extracts the public key from the "#atproto" verification method.
Thus no private key is ever stored in a database, but is it safe to use a single site-wide key this way?
(edited) - retr0id20:50It's suboptimal, but I wouldn't call it unsafe
- 20:51iirc the rationale for having a single key is that cloud HSM products charge on per-key basis, or something along those lines
- Aaron Goldman20:55You do want to have an online key for signing repos and an offline key for recovery
- 20:57Can you say more about what you mean by personas. The idea in general is one repo per DID. You could make one DID more than one with something like `did:plc:234?persona=work`
- Aaron Goldman21:29Putting a password hash in a DID Document may not be the best plan. For a traditional web service you have one password per service. So you can send the password to them to hash it and check the password. For a DID Document that is public it's usually better to put a public key e.g. did:key Rather than sending a password to the service you sign a challenge nonce from the service. This way many services can use the same credentials from the DID Document. If you still want the user experience of a Password-Based Key Derivation Function to generate the key pair locally from the password but never disclose that password to the web services. Changing your password is just updating the derivative did:key in the DID Document.
- 21:53Ilya MZP joined the room
- pzingg23:01
To be honest I am thinking more about nomadic identities for the Fediverse, but at some point maybe there would be a merging of sorts with wherever the AT protocol goes.
One did could have a bunch of alsoKnownAs handles, some with the at:// scheme and others with Mastodon-like https://instance/users/xxx handles. Each handle = a persona. The personas would all be under the control of one human being (“user”) but would represent different presences: home / work / hobby / focus; or perhaps “repos” / content managed by servers with different capabilities: text / photo / video / project management, etc.
Thu, Jul 27, 2023
- Aaron Goldman00:44Why not just have many DIDs? Then Link or unlink with the AKA field
- Aaron Goldman01:20Proof I am not the only one putting DAGs into filesystems. https://youtu.be/mXaBncNCTWQ Shh, don't tell anyone that an AtProto repo is a filesystem.
- 07:17mifhadi changed their display name to mif
- 07:19@mifhadi:matrix.org removed their display name (mif)
- 07:19@mifhadi:matrix.org left the room
- ThatLinuxUser09:22
In reply to this message
Isn't that a myth propagated by HR departments to make normal devs feel bad - 09:22🤔.(edited)
- Aaron Goldman
- 13:10I think it is a myth propagated by the very uneven value of code. A developer's most productive week could change the world more than their least productive 10 years. D. Richard Hipp did not make SQL but did make SQLite. Putting SQLite in the iPod meant that you could find your music by artist, album, title. By building up filters a user could find one song from tens of thousands. This made the iPod and saved apple from dying in 2001. This depended on a lot of exploration to get SQL and a lot of exploitation of SQLite by other people. Does that mean D. Richard Hipp's SQLite code is worth 3.06 trillion USD maybe not but the right code in the right place and time can be the difference between bankruptcy and 3.06 trillion USD market capitalization.
- Aaron Goldman13:17There is a lot of exploration work on distributed and decentralized systems going on now and it looks very unproductive. Once we come to a clean set of abstractions were the data structures and transfer protocols are well understood someone will make a simple clean product that exposes all these abilities in a small reusable library and do to all these complicated decentralized systems what SQLite did to database management systems. At that point exploitation of distributed and decentralized systems will be done all over software with little thought or effort for grate value.
- 13:18but only because of the seemingly unproductive exploration happening now.
- 13:20Anyway, that's why I think we get the myth propagated of the 10x engineer there just are knees in the curve.
- Aaron Goldman16:44
123456
PDS did count delta count sum bytes first last | https://bsky.social | 406,600 | 479,100 | 331,216,195 | 2022-11-17T00:35:16.391Z | 2023-07-27T21:34:56.038Z | | https://uwu | 11,714 | 11,714 | 86,648,128 | 2023-05-30T06:32:05.019Z | 2023-06-30T18:52:10.965Z | | https://stems.social | 5,044 | 5,897 | 4,048,359 | 2023-04-16T09:28:40.041Z | 2023-07-05T17:31:28.795Z | | https://boobee.blue | 1,601 | 3,016 | 2,137,698 | 2023-03-12T15:11:56.675Z | 2023-07-27T04:54:07.696Z | | https://atproto.forza7.org | 51 | 61 | 42,236 | 2023-04-13T14:10:14.176Z | 2023-06-05T09:50:10.998Z |
oh look there are more than 400,000
bsky.socialDIDs - 16:49@daley_:matrix.org set a profile picture
- 16:54@daley_:matrix.org changed their profile picture
- 17:51RandomHuman changed their display name to random()
- @daley_:matrix.org18:11Message deleted by Aaron Goldman
- ThatLinuxUser18:39I'm more interested in how UwU has nearly 12,000
- 18:39More seriously, that is a nice milestone!
- Aaron Goldman18:47So for a federation protocol, do you think we need anything more than 1) an endpoint to post a list of DIDs (or *) and get back a list of head CIDs 2) an endpoint to post a list of CIDs and get back a CAR file with the blocks ?
- jmcasey18:49i do like the discovery implications of that
- retr0id
- 19:10tamimi joined the room
- Aaron Goldman19:29UwU seems rude to me but I don't really know what they are trying to store. 🤷♂️
- 20:51Chris Lynch joined the room
- ThatLinuxUser22:02Oh, not so nice actually.
Fri, Jul 28, 2023
- Sabir Ibrahim02:06Something to be conscious of... https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/fbi-seizure-mastodon-server-wakeup-call-fediverse-users-and-hosts-protect-their
- 05:41meowycat983 joined the room
- meowycat98305:41What is Bluesky?
- @wvrld:matrix.org05:41💀😭
- meowycat98305:41Is it yet another Mastodon alternative?
- @wvrld:matrix.org05:42better
- 05:42bluesky >>
- meowycat98305:43How to make account on Bluesky?
- @wvrld:matrix.org05:43you need invite
- meowycat98305:45Is it possible to selfhost it without invite?
- 05:45Or is it some proprietary spyware?
- @wvrld:matrix.org05:48its decentralized
- meowycat98305:48How to selfhost it?
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- meowycat98305:49Can you tell me how?
- @wvrld:matrix.org05:49ofc, no problem
- 05:50heres a step by step tutorial
- 05:50if you run into any problems, just tell me.
- meowycat98305:51Okayy
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- @daley_:matrix.org08:15Message deleted by Aaron Goldman
- @red6leader9:matrix.org09:31Does anyone know if Bluesky plans to have a built in proxy function or VPN setting within the mobile app. For years social media platforms have neglected this.
- @planetoryd:matrix.org09:35Message deleted
- @planetoryd:matrix.org
- 09:36I prefer it done at kernel
- @red6leader9:matrix.org09:37Ermmmm, I mean sure, but last I checked iPhones suck at application layer routing
- 09:39IE, I want bluesky to go out a different path than say Facebook.
- @red6leader9:matrix.org09:45Syphon offers a proxy, and sure there’s possibility of data leakage it’s usually good enough.
- @planetoryd:matrix.org09:46that's why im developing a tool for linux for that purpose
- @red6leader9:matrix.org10:02Wait? Linux can already do that tho?
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- @planetoryd:matrix.org10:20
In reply to this message
https://github.com/planetoryd/netns-proxy/ . It's a prototype. I'm refactoring it now - Aaron Goldman10:39Message deleted
- @red6leader9:matrix.org10:41Soooo hashtags apparently don’t work on bluesky?
- 11:05Matthew changed their display name to Matthew (away)
- 11:11manhattanparadox joined the room
- 11:13@rimuru:gentoo.chat changed their profile picture
- Aaron Goldman11:50
In reply to this message
Let's split the question in two.
Is it proprietary?
In increasing proprietary order:- The protocol is an open protocol that anyone could implement.
- The PDS written by Bluesky PBC is open source. You can fork it but need Bluesky PBC's permission to contribute.
- The bsky.socialPDS is a service run by Bluesky PBC like any web2 service operator.
Is it spyware?
AtProto in general and Bluesky in particular is a publication protocal.
The repos are public and can be mirrored with or without your co-operation.
As an effect of this there is no true delete. Instead, there are three concepts.- Retract: Take a record out of your repo. Will remain in your history.
- Unpin: Tell your PDS you don't want a record to count agent your storage quota. May be deleted at any time.
- Purge Request: Affirmatively request that a record be deleted. A PDS may charge for Purge as it will force them to access the data to remove it timely. Indexers may honor the request by deleting the record or hiding the record from search results. Or they may ignore the request. Local laws and contracts will determine what any one indexer does with the data after a Purge Request. Purge Request can't be technologically enforced.
So different parts are varied levels of proprietary. With the open protocal being the most important to belong to the community.
AtProto is very much not a secret distribution system. The repos are public and the fact that they are public is what enables the separation of local caching and indexing from publishing.(edited) - 12:06@vinay-keshava:mozilla.org left the room
- 12:14@paulooze:matrix.org joined the room
- 12:15@paulooze:matrix.org left the room
- 13:20@rstuginski:matrix.org left the room
- tamimi14:21Question: what is bluesky icon!? Is there an official svg icon can be downloaded?
- Aaron Goldman
- 14:31@jerrylerman:matrix.org left the room
- Aaron Goldman
- tamimi14:37Thanks! It does, the cube will do it! Because googling it gave me several icons didn’t know which one in the official one.
- commie★Ⓐ☭
- @red6leader9:matrix.org15:13Like there’s no way to search the terms well, or click on them.
- 15:13Also Jesus Christ your avatar.
- 15:16@embers-sub:comm.cx left the room
- m1kola15:18
In reply to this message
"The PDS written by Bluesky PBC is open source. You can fork it but need Bluesky PBC's permission to contribute."
What do you mean? What sort of permission? Isn't it MIT-licensed?
- Aaron Goldman15:19
In reply to this message
you have permission to fork you need permission to change the official github repo - 15:20there is not for example a communaty edition for features they don't care about
- 15:20but that is fine you can fork
- m1kola15:20So you mean it is maintainer's decision to accept or decline a pull request.
- Aaron Goldman15:20yup
- @red6leader9:matrix.org15:22Aaron Goldman are you not on the dev team?
- Aaron Goldman15:23I was ... now I am not 😥
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:03Oh, is this chat still linked to the dev team?
- Joanna
- 17:05What if we all vote ?
- 17:05Is Bluesky a democracy ?
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:05I don’t even know if the decision makers are in here anymore
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- @red6leader9:matrix.org
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:06I hate the logo too
- Joanna17:06Is awful
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:06Could you imagine bluesky turning into twitter a year ago?!?
- Aaron Goldman17:06Propose one see if you can get it to go viral
- Joanna
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- 17:08how about this one ?
- Joanna17:08Who is in charge of the Bsky Governance ?
- 17:09But the logo is horrible
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- 17:09nsfw stuff ?
- Joanna17:09Ask ChatGPT
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- 17:10hmm
- 17:10term for kiss
- Joanna
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- Joanna
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- Joanna17:11I love that
- 17:11We need love
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:12We need less love. The 90s was peak society
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:12hugs and kisses, i need that lmao
- 17:12
In reply to this message
bro i have zero love what do you mean less love i am at absolute zero in love - Aaron Goldman17:1390s?
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- 17:13but i think there was enough love already
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:14The internet still had a barrier of entry if you wanted to be heard, but you could easily consume and ingest random bullshit.
- Joanna
- 17:15We are in war
We are all divided - @red6leader9:matrix.org17:15We were in war in the 90s. What changed?
- 17:15We can all express our opinions to each other and polarize and divide ourselves
- Joanna17:16We need to unite
Our relationships are in crisis - @red6leader9:matrix.org17:16Mass communication has done society very few favors and caused a lot of problems
- Joanna17:16Look the Nation states
One entire society fighting with another - 17:17This is Not love
- @red6leader9:matrix.org
- 17:17We just did it more clandestinely back in the day.
- Joanna17:17And we are not taking the meaningful conversations in social media yet
- 17:18Democracy conversations
- @red6leader9:matrix.org
- Joanna17:19I want to take care of Bsky Governance
- 17:19Who here is working on it ?
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:19Governance?
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- Joanna17:19YES
- 17:19GOVERNANCE
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:20I’m sure they’ll trust a random internet person.
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:20
In reply to this message
not mine, she aint going nowhere, i am locking her in the basement (its a joke if some goverment agency is watching this chat) - Joanna
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- @red6leader9:matrix.org
- Aaron Goldman17:21I liked a kinda b as the icon
- @red6leader9:matrix.org
- Joanna17:21
In reply to this message
You are
All of us are in war
Because our Nations decided
We never voted - @red6leader9:matrix.org17:21🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:21and social media are like 90% opened to all if ISIS can have twitter account
- Aaron Goldman17:22or something that looks like a treded conversation
- @wvrld:matrix.org
- Joanna17:22You are because you belong to our planet earth
- 17:22We are all humanity
- 17:22We are all citizens of the world
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:22Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:22Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Aaron Goldman17:22I think yall are off topic
- Joanna17:23This is the most important topic
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:23Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:23And we are not taking the meaningful conversation
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:23Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- 17:23Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:24I’m Dev too, but this is more important than any program/software(edited)
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:24Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:24We need to program entire humanity to wake up
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:24Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:24Right here, right now
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:24Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:24Is not communism
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:25Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:25Is our right to decide in which kind of world we want to live and to take responsibility
- 17:25That’s power
- 17:25People Power
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:25Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:25Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:26Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:26Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:26Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:26Lead the world, together
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:26Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:26Declare the independence of the internet
- 17:26Give power to people
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:26Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Aaron Goldman17:26
In reply to this message
What do you want the bot to do?
Dose the federated architecture change this plan vs how you would run a bot on twitter - @red6leader9:matrix.org17:27Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:27And to be the third party globally that judges all others: Nation States and Corporations
- @wvrld:matrix.org17:27Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:27Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Aaron Goldman17:27
In reply to this message
for your client do you plan to sign the repos or derfer keys to the PDS - @red6leader9:matrix.org17:27Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:28Not bots guys
We the real human beings have to take care of this - @red6leader9:matrix.org17:28Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- 17:28Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren
- Joanna17:28all of Us
- @red6leader9:matrix.org17:28Message deleted by Daniel Holmgren